Reinventing local journalism with community at its core: Exit interview with Candice Fortman (LNM Episode 38)

Sep 5, 2024 | 0 comments

LNM 38 - Candice Fortman

Candice Fortman, former executive director of Outlier Media, shares her journey transforming local journalism in Detroit. She reflects on the innovative service journalism model she helped build, which focuses on filling critical information gaps for underserved communities. Candice discusses how Outlier evolved from a scrappy startup into a well-respected newsroom known for directly addressing residents’ needs through text messaging and other community-centered approaches.

Candice offers insights into the challenges of scaling and funding local journalism, particularly in economically struggling areas like Detroit. She also reflects on her leadership growth, her partnership with Outlier’s founder Sarah Alvarez, and how they navigated the impact of COVID-19 on local news. Looking ahead, Candice talks about her excitement for new opportunities and her commitment to telling stories that matter to local communities. 

Listeners will find inspiration in Candice’s vision of journalism as a public good and her advice for newsrooms that want to make a lasting impact through deep community engagement. 

Episode chapters:
(00:02:30) – The mission and model of Outlier Media
(00:07:26) – Scaling and evolving Outlier Media’s operations
(00:11:34) – Fundraising challenges and merging with MuckRock
(00:14:51) – COVID-19, text messaging and refocusing on local information needs
(00:23:21) – Journalism as a public good
(00:27:57) – Candice’s leadership journey and growth
(00:35:32) – Growing up Black in Detroit
(00:43:13) – Fundraising advice and community impact
(00:49:22) – Rapid-fire questions
(00:57:26) – Media and local recommendations 

Listen to the episode here: 

Links: 

Bio: 

Candice FortmanCandice Fortman is the former executive director of Outlier Media, a non-profit newsroom that centers and responds to the needs of Detroit residents. In her role at Outlier, she worked to ensure the organization made consistent and timely progress in achieving that mission while building a sustainable newsroom that challenges traditional models. Before joining Outlier, Fortman was the marketing and engagement manager at WDET 101.9, Detroit’s NPR station. She is the host of News Guest, a podcast that explores newsroom sustainability and leadership. Fortman sits on the board of Cityside, which operates Berkeleyside and The Oaklandside in the San Francisco Bay Area. She is an advisory board member for OpenNews. She also serves as an advisor to Baltimore Beat, a non-profit newsroom with a mission to honor the tradition of the Black press and the spirit of alt-weekly journalism. Fortman was a 2021 JSK Community Impact Fellow and will head to Stanford University in the fall of 2024 as a residential JSK Fellow.  

Full transcript: 

(recorded via Riverside.fm; transcript automated via Castmagic.io, mostly unedited)

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:00:00]: And quite honestly, Tim, in the beginning, people would tell us that this was not journalism, that it was advocacy. And so I always think about that now because journalism has changed so much even in those few years. And things like information needs assessment, service journalism, the model that we have are sort of the things that funders want to see newsrooms doing. It is the thing that many of the new and emerging newsrooms are built off of. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:00:31]: Welcome to the Local News Matters podcast, where we explore pathways to stronger journalism, better businesses, and healthier communities. I'm Tim Regan-Porter, CEO of the Colorado Press Association.  

Last week’s episode marked a return after a six-week hiatus, as I was consumed by planning for the 146th annual Colorado Press Association convention, which took place in late August. The convention featured many podcast guests, including Jay Rosen, Kenny Katzgrau, Dan Grech, Jeff Roberts, Raleigh Burleigh, Todd Chamberlin, Corey Hutchins, Joaquin Alvarado, Dave Perry, Barbara Hardt, Frank Mungeam, and more—including this week’s guest, Candice Fortman, who gave the Hall of Fame keynote. 

Candice continues my occasional “exit interview” series, conducted just after she announced her resignation as Executive Director of Outlier Media. Candice has been a transformative force in local journalism, leading Outlier Media with a unique approach to meeting the information needs of Detroit’s residents. As she prepares to embark on her JSK Fellowship at Stanford University, we reflect on her journey at Outlier, the innovative journalism model she helped shape, and her thoughts on the future of local news. I enjoyed this conversation so much, and I hope you see why. Candice’s insights into community engagement, her thoughts on the challenges of scaling journalism with real impact, and her vision for the future are insightful and inspiring. And she’s just fun to talk to. 

If you like this episode and what we're doing more generally, please follow in your favorite podcast app, leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, and tell your friends about us. This is a side project and a labor of love, and your support means a lot. You can find past episodes, full transcripts, and relevant links, and sign up for our newsletter at localnewsmatterspodcast.com, or for lazy typists like me at lnmpod.com. You also follow us on most social media channels @lnmpod. 

And now I bring you Candice Fortman. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:02:26]: Alright. Well, welcome, Candice. Thanks for being on the podcast. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:02:28]: I'm so excited to talk to you today, Tim. 

The mission and model of Outlier Media 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:02:30]: Oh, me too. I met you shortly after you started at Outlier Media. Was that 2018, 2019, something like that? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:02:37]: I think early 2019. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:02:39]: Yeah. And have always been impressed with you and what you've done, and now you have, I guess, just turned over the reins. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:02:49]: That's right. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:02:50]: And you are on your way to California for your second JSK fellowship, this one on-site and in person. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:02:58]: Right. The real thing, as they say. The real thing. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:03:01]: So I'm excited for you. That was one of the best times in my life. So… 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:03:05]: That's what I keep hearing. And I'll tell you that the thing that attracted me to JSK has been the alum of the program. I have not ever met a more generous, thoughtful, innovative group of human beings. And every time I come across someone who has been a JSK alum, there is a through line of kindness that cannot be denied. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:03:30]: Yes. I think one of their key selection criteria is that no assholes rule. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:03:35]: I think Dawn says no brilliant jerks. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:03:38]: Yes. That's it. That's it. That's her phrase. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:03:41]: But that other part works as well. Same difference. It means the same thing. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:03:46]: So as you have wrapped things up on Outlier Media, I've been doing an occasional series of exit interviews or just giving people an opportunity to to reflect on their experiences and what they've learned. But maybe we should start real quick with just a summary of what Outlier Media is and the role you played. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:04:07]: Yeah. Outlier Media is a nonprofit newsroom serving Detroiters, and we have a model of journalism that was actually created at, the JSK Fellowship by our founder and editor in chief, Sarah Alvarez, and more than because this is an exit interview, more than founder in chief, one of the most important people in my life. And so Sarah was when she did her JSK Fellowship, what she was trying to figure out is how can newsrooms, 1, identify what information needs a community has to and how to address those information needs. So how do we figure out what the resources of journalism and what the resources of a newsroom should actually be applied to that could change the material and live lives of a community. And at that time in the beginning, we were really focused on crisis level needs. So because we had limited resources, we focused on the things that Detroiters most needed to know. So every year or so, we do an information needs assessment that Sarah has been doing since the very beginning when it was just a one person shop in 2016. And that information needs assessment is done over text message, and we will come back to text messaging because that's an important part of our methodology. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:05:22]: And we ask a representative group of Detroiters a series of questions to figure out what Detroiters are struggling to get good information about in order to change their lives. So we ask those questions over text message, but we also look at public record information, nonemergency 911 calls, calls to United Way to see what people are asking questions about. But more importantly, what are people complaining about? Because complaint data is a real good indicator of where problems and accountability gaps exist in your community. And so from that information needs assessment, that is how we establish our beats of reporting. So in the beginning, our– we had two beats of reporting, housing and utilities. Those were Detroiters' biggest information gaps and for a number of reasons. And one of the things I love about information needs assessments is that you could say that housing can be an information gap anywhere in the country, right, particularly right now. But in Detroit, and I'm sure this is true in other communities, that information crisis looked like a tax foreclosure crisis in the early years of outlier because of policies and regulations that were unique to this region. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:06:31]: Where I'm going in California, I am positive, based on my research, it would be a rent crisis, because the price of rent is pretty high. And so that allowed us to really take our very limited resources. When I say limited, Sarah was sort of in the beginning, I think that she was doing this all thoughts and prayers. And so there was no investment in this. And quite honestly, Tim, in the beginning, people would tell us that this was not journalism, that it was advocacy. And so I always think about that now because journalism has changed so much even in those few years. And things like information needs assessment, service journalism, the model that we have are sort of the things that funders want to see, newsrooms doing. It is the thing that many of the new and emerging newsrooms are built off of. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:07:18]: Things like even – like things like documenters that come out of City Bureau. So, anyhow, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm rambling. I'm saying so many things. 

Scaling and evolving Outlier Media’s operations 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:07:26]: No. That's all great. And I wanna dig into a lot of different aspects of that. But I'll sort of get to there by just pointing out that, you know, as you said, a lot of people did not understand the model because it did not look like normal journalism, and the funding wasn't there early on. Right? You know, it was a shoestring. It was Sarah's passion project. I think when you got there, I think – I read that the budget was something like $75,000. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:07:54]: That is what we had in the bank. $72,000 $72,600 was in that bank account. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:08:00]: And by now, you've raised what is it? Over $7,000,000 from philanthropy? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:08:04]: I I I think I have to do the numbers. I don't know if it's quite 7,000,000,000, but our operating budget is just over $2,000,000 this year. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:08:11]: So that's a lot of growth, and people have started to see the wisdom in what you're doing. And, you know, when I don't know how the model has evolved, so maybe we can actually start there. When I became aware of Sarah's what Sarah was doing, I and I think she actually the seed of the idea, my understanding – has started when she came to Macon, Georgia where I was at the Center For Collaborative Journalism. Andrew Haeg put on an information needs of the poor conference, and Jay Hamilton at Stanford was one of the guests. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:08:42]: Shout out to Jay Hamilton. He is, if there's a foundational base of Outlier, Jay Hamilton's work is the base of what we do. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:08:50]: And so, you know, a lot of the journalism in those early days was what I've described as bespoke journalism. Right? It's answering questions for a person and tracking down that information, which is not how we think of journalism, but it is very much in the line of how, you know, a savvy, smart startup in Silicon Valley might think about, you know, do things that don't scale before you scale so that you know the needs of of the people you're serving. Yeah. So talk about that model and then how it evolved and scaled. I 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:09:22]: I think if we would have called it bespoke journalism, we might have made money. If you call something a bespoke bar, all of a sudden, it's the fanciest thing in town. So, you know, the beautiful thing about not having any money is that it makes you really good at managing the money you have. And it makes you think really critically about what you actually need to invest in in order to keep the doors open, in order to keep going. And so when we were in the early days, it was critical that we were only doing the things that would have the highest impact for Detroiters. And so only focusing on housing and really only at that time focusing on tax foreclosure was critical. And I'd like to think of the tax foreclosure infrastructure now as a completely different thing. And a lot of that early work that Sarah was doing can be—has been attributed to that. Also, looking at utilities, which utilities is incredibly – hard beat to cover. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:10:22]: People aren't, like, rushing to cover utilities. And in Detroit, our utility company is a private company. And so it really takes years of building the sort of rigor in reporting in order to even make a dent in that reporting. But because of the way we were set up, that we weren't trying to go after ad dollars, we weren't trying to build a website, we didn't care about social shares, we could focus only on the things Detroiters needed to know because that was the motto. And the– it I will tell you that it ensured that we did not make payroll for ourselves more than a few times over the years. But when I think about the sacrifice we made and we can talk a bit about the—I think that that sacrifice is a bad thing, and we can talk about that. But the sacrifice that we made, the way that we built allowed us to be here today. And more importantly, not just doing work in Detroit, but my hope, and I think it's true, is that we have influenced the way journalism is done in many communities outside of Detroit. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:11:24]: And that is not what we were focused on, but it is a beautiful outcome of just staying the course in our own work. 

Fundraising challenges and merging with MuckRock 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:11:34]: And so when you were, when you started, you know, I think a large part of your job was raising money. Is that correct? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:11:40]: When I started, a large part of my job was doing everything. You know, when it was three—it was three of us at that time, and we had nothing. We were a fiscally sponsored project. We were not in a newsroom. We were not also—Tim, let me be very clear. We were not intended to become a newsroom. What actually, when I first started, the thing that Sarah really wanted me to figure out is what should we do with this model? Because it wasn't a newsroom. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:12:07]: We were doing reporting, but we didn't have an official publishing website. We were not trying to build a publishing website. We did most of our long form, reporting in collaboration with other newsrooms, meaning we publish in — other on other people's platforms and gave all that reporting away for free. And so our thinking was that we would merge or sell off the model to someone else. And funny enough, Tim, no one cared. Nobody wanted to pay us for this model. Nobody really wanted to merge what we were doing into their existing infrastructure. And so we found over time that we just were not going to be able to figure it out, and we actually did enter into a merger in early January of 2020 with MuckRock in Boston. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:12:54]: And we were gonna go off and build news products for other newsrooms and build responsive news products, you know, built on this methodology of service journalism. And then March of 2020 happened. And we had built and I think the thing that I did miss talking about in the beginning is that the other part of what we do is that from the very beginning, we have delivered our reporting via an SMS platform, so via text message. And that's not long form reporting. We're not pushing out long form articles. Detroiters can text into us or we can text out to Detroiters and you can get information. Like, for instance, if you need to see if your landlord is paying the property taxes on your house, We've scraped the Wayne County treasurer's office website, put it in this platform. You can put your address right from your phone, whether you have a smartphone or a free government phone, and it will tell you if your landlord is current on your property taxes. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:13:47]: And during COVID, if you needed to figure out where the closest text testing center is to your ZIP code, if you needed to figure out where the closest food bank was because during COVID, we did a special information needs assessment, and the for the first time, food insecurity came up as an information gap. And so our ability to be able to respond quickly and, like, indirectly to people's questions and in that text system, there's always an option to speak directly to a reporter in our newsroom. And within 48 hours, someone will answer your question directly if it is not something that is automated in the tech system. So when we talk about bespoke journalism, it is truly one to one journalism. It is keeping people both out of crisis but also being able to catch an emerging crisis. Because sometimes people will text – into us and alert us of something that might be emerging, like flooding or a power outage that's only impacting one small community, and they can't get any help for that power outage. So really being able to also identify where problems are starting to emerge. 

COVID-19, text messaging and refocusing on local information needs 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:14:51]: Mhmm. And, yeah, the texting aspect of, of course, been what a lot of people have found so fascinating about Outlier Media. And I don't think enough people have learned how they can use SMS. So talk a little bit about, particularly in the early days, how did you get word out? What kinds of questions were you getting in? And then how did that feed into the systems that you ended up building and the deeper reporting you ended up doing? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:15:17]: So if someone was to ask you where our early investment went, I would say it went fully into the tech system from paying for the very expensive platform. It is not an inexpensive thing even though it's an outdated technology. But the thing that we did is because when you are a small, startup newsroom, the one thing you do not have outside of money is you don't have money to do the actual reporting, and you certainly don't have money to do marketing. So you can't tell anybody that you exist. And so Sarah very smartly decided in the beginning to start buying marketing lists. And it's funny because I come from a marketing background where I used to do this for much more terrible reasons, but Sarah did it for much more useful reasons. So she would buy the same marketing list that I used to buy. And over time, we purchased almost every phone number that was available in the city of Detroit. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:16:10]: And that is how we were able to push those text messages out to people and to let folks know that this service existed. Because when we didn't have, we couldn't buy billboards. We couldn't buy radio ads. And so we decided we just had to go and find our audience on our own. And so that is sort of how we developed the SMS system. We actually are now in beta testing and it will launch in the next couple of months. We've built our own SMS service because we found over time that many of the services are just not built to work exactly how we work. And so, actually using the same firm that built the back end of the documenters project out of City Bureau, we have built our own text messaging platform that is incredible, and really takes that sort of one to one reporting up a notch, completely. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:17:04]: And so we have been that SMS service is critical to our work. It's how we get sourcing for stories. It is how we alert our community. Like, for instance, thanks to climate change, there's now a flood zone in the city of Detroit. And so being able in this new tech system, we'll be able to text out to everybody who's in the ZIP code where that flood zone exists and get them critical information when we see flooding is on the horizon. Or after flooding has happened, how will they get in touch with the federal government, with FEMA? How should they navigate that? They can let us know if they're having a hard time navigating those forms. And so really thinking about building a responsive tool that can work both on an every single day basis for average everyday need, but, also, I think more importantly, in an ever changing world at times where information can keep people safe in a crisis. And so coming out of that, we so it it we entered that merger with MuckRock thinking we would do that for other people, and then COVID, of course, happened. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:18:08]: We had built this platform that was made for crisis. And here we were off doing something totally different. And so, shout out to Michael Morrissey, who's also a JSK alum. We, in April of 2020, said to him, we actually need to stop. We need to pull out of this merger, and we need to try this outlier thing again. We need to go back to our community and do the thing that we do, which was to keep people safe in a crisis. And so, I am always so grateful to Michael and his leadership for understanding why that was not gonna work in that moment, and I think it has worked for both of our organizations incredibly well. And so we pulled out of the merger, decided, Sarah and I, that we were going to build a newsroom. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:18:54]: For the first time that was the first time we said we're gonna build a newsroom. And so April 2020 is sort of like I always say Outlier has, like, 4, found founding dates, and I think April 2020 is one of those founding dates. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:19:07]: Yeah. So I wanna, before we get into other topics, I'm thinking about, you know, newsrooms who are fascinated by this idea. Maybe they have a little money to experiment. Maybe they get a grant. And they're just trying to think through how –  what does this look like in the beginning? So, you know, as Sarah's starting this, and I think, you know, this was probably still the motor operation in 2019 when I was up there. So I go buy a marketing list or I put up QR codes or something. What am I asking people? And what kinds of things are you sending out, blasting out, if it's more broadcast in those early days? How are you getting people interested and saying, hey, this can actually meet your information needs? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:19:51]: Well, the first thing is that you need to approach whatever technology you use from a human standpoint. And so even to this day, when you get a text message from us, it says, “Hi. This is Sara Alvarez from Outlier Media.” It doesn't just say this is Outlier Media, because nobody cares about Outlier Media. But people care about a human being that they can go and maybe Google and see that that's a real person. And so the first place to start is to figure out, regardless how you're going to humanize the connection between, the reporting in your community. And so for us, it looks like, hi. This is Sarah. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:20:26]: In the very beginning, are you having a hard time with taxes or with utilities? Text one for housing. Text two for utilities. Text three for something else. And then also making sure that you understand the language barriers in your community. And so, for us, our tech service is available in English, Spanish, and Arabic because those are the three languages most spoken in Detroit. That is hard. And I'm not saying that everybody needs to start that way because you might not have the money because that is an investment because you should be paying the people who do your translations to do your translations. But as you start to build the system up and that's why I always tell people, I think that folks see something like outlier. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:21:08]: And I remember feeling that way when I first started that I needed to build the entire elephant on day one. I needed to have the whole thing figured out. And instead, what actually made it much more achievable was that I focused on just building a tail first, just building the legs. And then eventually, I looked up and there was a whole elephant sitting in our newsroom. And Sarah would look at, we would look at each other and say, how did, where did these people come from? What is happening? And it also worked for our community because at the same rate, we were able to build trust with our community and get sort of those folks in community that are really good at extending their personal trust and their personal brand to say these folks are legit. You can trust them. They are the real deal. And that is, I feel and we could be wrong. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:21:57]: We'll find out. Everybody's on the same course. You know, this is a very young industry, but I really do feel like that is an incredible way to build sustainable trust with your community. And as opposed to just dropping in one day with, you know, all splashy and fancy, and here we are at Newsroom. I think that I look at something like, even folks who started with more infrastructure, something like the Oakland side out of city siding in California. I love the way that Tasneem built the beginnings of what became the Oakland side. Before the Oakland side had a name, it was they were doing a year's worth of community listening sessions, going into different neighborhoods in Oakland, sitting down and listening to people before they printed a single word. And so there was already a relationship built with community before they even had a publishing website. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:22:47]: And I think that that for me has been one of the things that has sustained us over time even when nobody knew what we were doing or who we were. Folks were like, oh, yeah. They helped me stay in my house. They helped me figure out how to get my utility bills paid. When you can actually do something for people, return material possessions back to them, keep them in their house, keep their lights and water on, they have a real easy time telling their aunts, cousins, sisters, brothers, and neighbors to trust you as well. And that is an incredible way to build community. 

Journalism as a public good 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:23:21]: I wanna talk a little bit about, to kinda build on that, just the importance of the information needs, particularly for underserved communities, for low income communities. You know, I think a lot of Americans, particularly a lot of Americans have privilege, economic privilege, racial privilege. We know local news is important, and we listen to our NPR, and it's so much about Trump and, you know, national politics. But for low income communities, it's about not getting kicked out of your house or you're having your electricity being turned off or, you know, a factory closing or all of these other things. So talk a little bit about just sort of, it's so much more vital, I think, in many ways, that local real information. And I don't think we're putting the money we need into those communities because the economic model isn't there or because those needs aren't understood or what else? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:24:14]: So now we're getting into my favorite topic, which is that journalism is a public good and should be treated that way. It should be treated like turning the lights on. It should be treated like infrastructure, like building highways and streets. And so the real conversation we'll eventually have to have is that if information is a public good, why are you asking individual newsrooms to figure out the business model of journalism? It there is no business model for journalism in most local communities. In fact, it is not a business. It is a public good. But that's a conversation for another day, and I apologize to all my funders who are probably freaking out and hearing that, but it is true. So, anyhow, figuring out the information needs of a community, especially communities where, one, maybe there is no journalism organization, where there's no library, where there's no hospital. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:25:03]: Because we're talking about the other things that serve information gaps when there is no newsroom. Because there are ways people get information when there isn't a newsroom that I think that we undercover and underthink about in this industry. And so when you're in communities that are having those sorts of true information gaps, it is vital that you figure out what are the things that people most need to know right now and feel those things first and foremost. Because, again, as you said, those are the things that are gonna keep people in their houses. Those are the things that keep people's water on it. Make ensure that the water is clean. Right? You look at all the different water issues we're having across the country. Figuring out how to get good reporting into those places is vital. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:25:49]: The other thing I think that we might need to challenge ourselves to understanding is it might not look like building a full newsroom. There are other ways to bring news infrastructure to a place that doesn't just look like building a full newsroom. It might look like putting a reporter in a library and having them have a help desk at that, at the local library or at the local farmers market or at the Pick and Save. It looks like finding ways to get information into community that might not always mirror large cities. Right? But then you flip that and you go to large cities where people will tell you, well, there is no, you know, there are no information deserts. There's no information crisis there. But if the infrastructure that exists is only really serving probably the outer ring suburbs, meaning the and it often means sort of a white elite audience, whereas NPR consumers and I we call it we always say, Sarah and I, that those are folks who use news as entertainment, where those are the folks that are sitting at dinner tables, or dinner parties on a Saturday and say, did you hear on NPR? As opposed to when information actually keeps you in place. And so I think – the other thing and this was the thing I was trying to remember before. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:27:00]: I think the thing that is also misunderstood is that right now is a great example of this. We keep hearing on the nightly news, in national headlines that there is no recession happening. But if I ask Detroiters, is there a recession happening? Many of them will tell me there is. Because there is a recession happening for a segment of our country. There is a recession happening for people who do not have college educations. There is a recession happening for people who don't own their homes. There is a recession happening for people who are trying to pay rent with college degrees that don't pay the price of rent. That feels like a personal recession, and I can't deny those people's lived truth. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:27:41]: And so an information needs assessment also helps you understand the difference between a truth that exists for sort of, like, the umbrella of people as opposed to the truth that exists for a segment of your community. Because two things can be true at the same time. 

Candice’s leadership journey and growth 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:27:57]: Absolutely. Talk to me a little bit about arriving at Outlier. So you had a marketing background. What was it that attracted you to what Sarah was doing? Why did this become a passion for you? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:28:10]: Yeah. So before coming to Outlier, my immediate job was working at the public radio station in Detroit. Shout out to WDET. And so at WDET, and all of my jobs in media have set even when I was in for profit radio, set somewhere between production and the business side. And so I was always sort of sitting in the gap of those two things. And all of those jobs, really trying to figure out how do we take the resources of the business side and actually make them useful to the audience. I could see that through right now. I couldn't see it until recently, but I can see that that has been the job the whole time. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:28:48]: And so coming to I remember when Sarah first asked me, if I would come and be her boss. That's, like, those were the words she used. I'm a reporter. I wanna be a reporter. I need a boss. Will you come be my boss? I think I had missed her one time before that. And I knew her work because she was at the other public radio station, Michigan Public Radio, which is state serving. And so I knew that she was brilliant. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:29:14]: And so I looked at her and I said, no, I can't do that. What are you talking about? Oh, and so that was April of 2018. And that was really about me being shortsighted about my own gifts and talents. It had nothing to do with my thoughts about Sarah or what she was building. Because I'd been paying attention to what she was building, and I thought it was and so in April 2018, I tell her no, but I said, well, let's start working on some projects together. And so we started this working more closely together on a couple of projects, and I got to know her better. And so then in October or November of 2018, we went to a conference in Chicago. We've just happened to both be at this conference. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:29:58]: And on the way back to Detroit, we're both taking the train back. Shout out to Amtrak not owning their own train lines. So you often get stuck on this route. And so the train couldn't take off that night. So we had to stay an extra night. So we went to dinner together. And by the end of that dinner, I told her I was gonna come to Outlier. I think that Sarah is truly one of the most brilliant human beings I will ever have the pleasure of knowing. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:30:23]: But she also has a vision for journalism that match my vision for journalism, but more importantly, my vision for Detroit. I am a Detroiter. I grew up in the city. The city raised me. The city taught me how to love community, how to build community. And as I saw more and more of the folks who made me who I am struggling to stay in place here, figuring out how – what my role was going to be in making this an easier to not just survive city, but a city that people could thrive in was important to me. It was sort of like, you know, like paying tithes back to the city that gave me everything. And so the opportunity to be able to build something like outlier in Detroit will I hope it is in my obituary. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:31:19]: I hope that the folks who write that know how important this work has been to me and how important this city and the people of this city will always be to me. And so outlier, I I say many times over, is my love letter to the city of Detroit. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:31:34]: Powerful. You know, so you came there, became Sarah's boss, and have over… 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:31:40]: You can’t be Sarah—that's the other thing—you can't be Sarah's boss. Sarah's not getting—Sarah getting a boss is the, most anybody who knows Sarah would find that hilarious. Sarah does not need a boss, and Sarah cannot have a boss. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:31:54]: But there were three of you when you started. So you've overseen this growth, and I wanna talk a little bit about some of that process. But just for you as a leader, how do you think you've grown over that time? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:32:07]: I can hardly recognize myself, and, fortunately, I'm really happy about that. The woman who walked into that newsroom in February of 2019 was so unsure of herself, did not understand her value proposition in most things, could not articulate that in a real way, in a way that she actually believed. Also, I had been in these jobs where I had a little bit of power, but not enough to actually create real change to really experiment, to drive some things forward in a way that didn't require me to ask two or three people up. And this was the first time when someone had trusted me fully and believed in my talents fully and said, you got it. Go for it. And so my confidence is much bigger than it was the first day. I have a network of peers in this industry that sometimes I look at my phone and I look – who's texting me, and I'm like, why do I even know this person? Why how fortunate am I that these are the people I can call and ask for advice that I can that are encouraging me, who I get to encourage? But also, it helped me to, I think, see the community work that my mother had been doing as sort of, like, the foundation of the leader I was eventually going to become. So my mom was a block club president most of my life. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:33:46]: And so I've been going to block club meetings. I've been going to community meetings forever. And so understanding that I could bring all of that knowledge, that those were training grounds for me. And I didn't understand why or what it was gonna lead to at that point. But all of those things, my life has been leading to this moment and to this work. And so I think the other part of it is that I can just see my path much more clearly. And that also, I think, has something to do with aging, is that you just start to see the timeline much more clearly, why that had to happen or order for this to happen, why it all the things that you wanted to happen in your twenties didn't happen for you in your twenties, and that that is okay. And so I think that that's a big thing. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:34:28]: But the other thing, you know, I think the biggest part is that I have such an abundance mindset now that I did not have then. Ever I was leaving from a place of lack in the very beginning. We didn't have enough money. I didn't have enough talent. We didn't have enough notoriety to get the job done. And somewhere in the middle of 2020, thanks to, I think, a lot of things, having a lot of time alone, a lift alone during the pandemic, also the work of an incredible therapist, which I cannot encourage newsroom leaders to invest in their mental health more, I was able to see that a lot of the ways that we were being held back were my own mentality, my own thinking that we were not enough, that we were going to have to oversell ourselves. And so once I really leaned into the fact that we were we had plenty and that what we had built was incredible, that is where I really started to see massive change happen for both Sarah and I as leaders, but also for the organization as a whole. 

Growing up Black in Detroit 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:35:32]: I wanna go somewhere that is a little, maybe a little risky, but I just feel like going there. So I'll talk about being black in Detroit. So I have grown up, you know, I grew up in the Deep South in Georgia and mostly in communities that were – had very large black populations, sometimes majority black populations. Very different though in the Deep South than in Detroit. And I remember as an adult hearing, I think, from multiple black, most I think black women in all these cases a couple of times where they talked about, you know, I mean, Detroit, obviously home to Motown and just a lot of rich cultural heritage and majority black city. And the first time they went outside of Detroit, they had no idea that people had these perceptions of black people. And that's such a coming from the deep south and seeing the struggles of blacks in the community, even in some of these majority black communities, they were locked out of power. And to see that people can grow up without that sense of self that so many black Americans grow up with just eye opening to me and such a wonderful thing. And I'm wondering if you've had that experience and seen that. And what does that mean to the possibilities of maybe where we could go and how we talk about race? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:36:56]: Detroit is the greatest city on earth. So, and I – and I'm deeply biased about this, and I'm okay with that bias. I think that part of why I feel that is exactly what you're hinting at. That I grew up not understanding in a real way some of the limitations my friends felt put on them that grew up in other places. The mayor was Black. The, you know, the doctors were Black. Everybody's Black. Our mailman wasn't Black. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:37:28]: Like, that's the most diverse that you saw. Shout out to Danny. Uh-huh. Danny was Polish. And so, I think that there was growing up in Detroit in the 80s, 90s—I can say a million things about what it felt like to grow up black in Detroit at that time because I also say it is very different depending on when you grew up in the city. And also what was happening in your home, what community you lived in. Because this is one of the things that I think growing up Black in Detroit did teach me that I think people still struggle with is that Black is not a monolith. My Black experience in Detroit is different than people's Black experience on the other side of town or six blocks up because of what was happening in my household, because of the schools I went to, because of other experiences that I got to have. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:38:15]: Right? Or experiences that I didn't get to have. And so that is the one thing that is for sure at the top of my head all the time. I'm like, yeah. Black folks are different all over the world. And they're different from one side of the city to the other side of the city. I joke all the time, our new executive director, Orlando Bailey, is from the east side of Detroit. And there's sort of this rivalry between the east side and the west side of the city. And you hear folks talk about these two sides of the city, you would think that they were other sides of the planet. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:38:43]: They're six miles apart from one another, but there is a real culture shift between those two sides of the city. Same, all Black people, completely different cultures in some ways. And so I think that that's one of the things with the other part about growing up Black in Detroit is that I had the most incredible Black women on earth teaching me both in formal ways in schools, in communities, in the church that I grew up in, my dance teachers. I'll be –  they were everywhere. I had no lack of incredible women to look up to become, hopefully, one day, and that remains true for me. I'll tell you a short story. I was in this boutique that I go to all the time here in Detroit, Flow Boutique, that's been in this community for more than 20 years. And the woman who owns it, Felicia, is absolutely incredible, and she has built a clothing store that is like a gathering place. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:39:49]: I often feel bad for it because I was like, do people come here and buy clothes? Because often people are just sitting here having conversations. You know? It's one of those places. And so I was there last Saturday, and it's one of those places where you run into a bunch of people you know. If you stand there for more than 20 minutes, someone's gonna walk through that door that you know. And so this is one of those days where people just kept walking in and they were staying and we were having conversations. And at some point, someone walked in and said, have you heard about what Candace is about to do? And so I don't know if you have any black women in your life, but if you tell a black woman that you have won an award, she's gonna it can be the smallest award. By the time she gets done talking about it, it's gonna sound like an Oscar. And so, they were like, she's going to Stanford and like, you would think I had gotten into Stanford Medical School. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:40:37]: Right? And it was this really beautiful celebration. And the thing that happened next to him, I don't even know if I can write about it yet. I do wanna write about it. Those women surrounded me and started praying over me. That is the city that I was raised in, that they are willing to send me off even though they wanna keep me here, but they will not send me off without covering me with their love. I can't fathom having been raised anywhere else with any sort of spirit of generosity, kindness, and absolute flyness as the people who call Detroit home. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:41:15]: That's beautiful. A big tangent, but I think it's important to remember that, you know, we talk about local news, but each city has its own flavor and uniqueness and people have their own uniqueness. And we need to, you know, as hopefully this DEI backlash doesn't grow. I think journalism by and large is not buying into the backlash, but, as we hopefully moved forward on DEI that we that we recognize none of these, no group is monolithic and people have different lived experiences and you have to get to know people and meet their individual needs, whether that's employees in your newsroom or the communities you serve. Alright. Back to Outlier. You know, as you leave and, you know, I don't know how much thought you've given to what's next. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:42:07]: No. I haven't. And, also, and I know that that sounds silly, and it feels kinda silly too. I do not know what I wanna be when I grow up. And that feels a bit ridiculous, but I just said that to an industry leader that I really admire. And I was like, I can't believe I don't know what I wanna be when I grow up. And she was like, I've never known what I wanted to be. I just keep going forward. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:42:33]: And I think that that is the energy in which I'm moving ahead. I don't know what the road is going to be. I want to continue contributing to local journalism. I do also, though, deeply want to be able to tell stories. I am a storyteller on my own, but I have spent all of my career mostly not doing that on my own, helping other people do that. And so I do wanna find ways to be able to highlight some of the stories and issues that I really think are valuable. And so I don't know what that looks like. Anybody with ideas, please reach out to Tim, and he will find me. 

Fundraising advice and community impact 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:43:13]: Absolutely. So it's conceivable, if not likely, that raising money will be part of what you will do for whatever is next. You certainly did that at Outlier. What advice would you give to people looking back on your experience, particularly if you're doing something for communities that maybe don't have as much economic interest, invested in them or for new ideas like the texting platforms? How do you – what advice – do you give people to try to get people to take a chance and say this is a worthy cause that you need to invest in? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:43:48]: You are going to have to, especially if you are not well positioned, whatever that means to you. You don't know a bunch of millionaires. You don't have deep connections to the foundation world. And these are I'm saying these as the troops that I walked into this work with. You're gonna have to get incredibly good at telling your story, at telling your story inside of a lens of impact and the impact that matters to the place you serve. I always say that I wanna hear I wanna be able to smell, taste, and feel the place you're talking about by the time you get done talking about it Because that is what draws folks in and says, yeah, that's where that's a place I wanna invest in even though I've never been there. Right? I've been, I think I donate to half the doggone newsrooms in this country at this point. But often it is because I'll read a newsletter or I'll see a tweet, and  they're telling a story about the work that they do, about the place that they live in, and I want that place to thrive. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:44:49]: And so that is – think about that as an innate human nature, how you naturally connect to stories, to what makes you do something, make a call to action. Use that same gut feeling. Right? If it's not making you feel like you should give, what why would it make anybody else feel like they should? Now I think the other part of that is that I I just said this to an incredible newsroom leader who has a newer newsroom that I think is I'm just gonna say who it is. I hope that you'll forgive me for this. Lisa Snowden at Baltimore Beat, I think, is building one of the most powerful things in the country. In a moment where everybody is telling us that print won't work, she is utilizing print in a way that is connecting to the folks in Baltimore, but more importantly, it looks at the, like, the innovation of putting newspaper boxes out. And not only is she just because it's a free paper, not only are they newspaper boxes, but if you need to get Narcan, there's Narcan available in some of those newspaper boxes. There are – there's food available in some of them. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:45:54]: Some of them are food pantries. They're in places where folks that are in the community actually hang out in, not the guests of where those places hang out in. She has a whole delivery team, and I told her she needs to put a GoPro on those drivers because what the stories they're telling about their interactions when they drop off the Baltimore Beat is incredible. For me, Lisa should be on every main stage at every conference in this industry. Because that is a story of success, and it is a story that I think people should be investing in. Because that's the thing all of us need to be trying to figure out how to do, how to connect to community in an authentic way that also innovates on a thing that already existed. Right? Like, she didn't innovate on print. Print already existed. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:46:43]: But how can you make your newsroom also a community center? She is figuring out how to do that. And so that story of impact, that story of putting yourself in a position, that can be hard, especially for folks that are journalists that are doing this work, to put themselves out there, to ensure that they become authorities on their community, on the thing that they do. But that is the thing that people wanna hear. They wanna hear about the people you serve, the place you serve. And if you can center your thoughts, notice I'm not talking about money. I'm not giving you a single clue on filling out grant forms or you know, all of it is the same. Right? And it's really I can't remember what newsroom it is, but their development director is a former reporter. And when they said that to me, I was like, yes. That makes complete sense because she's a storyteller, and that's 90% of the job. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:47:36]: Well, I'm a – I'll move to rapid fire questions, but maybe I'll just wrap up this part with looking back on the past, what is it, almost  five years? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:47:46]: Almost six years. Almost six years. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:47:48]: Yeah. What do you think is the biggest thing you take away from it for your future endeavors? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:47:55]: Just thinking about it made me tear up. My partnership with Sarah is the most impactful relationship of my life outside of my family. Our ability to trust one another to do the work, I think, that we were both called to do is foundational to what has become the outlier that exists today. And I am not a person that I think is easy to partnership or easy person to partner with, And so I've had to learn how to become a better partner. I've had to learn how to become a better friend. I've had to learn how to lean on someone and to be vulnerable and transparent in moments where my gut probably would have told me to hide from vulnerability and transparency. And I am walking away with a friend for life, of course, but also having built something with someone who taught me more than I could have hoped for the day I walked in. And so I think that that is my biggest takeaway. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:49:08]: And, yes, the work is important and valuable, and that is right up there with it. But I think I really have to lean into the value and potency of my partnership with Sarah. 

Rapid-fire questions 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:49:22]: Alright. So now for the rapid fire questions, and my questions will be quick, but your answers don't have to, and I might even ask you to elaborate. So the first one, compared to a year ago, are you more or less optimistic about the future of local news? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:49:35]: More. More ish. I needed that ish. There are things that give me a lot of pause, and there are things that light me up. Things that light me up, someone like Maritza at Conecta Arizona finally getting investment. That lights me up. Foundation building newsrooms gives me a bit of pause because I like things that are built out of community naturally. But that's not right or wrong. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:50:04]: It's just that's why I use the word pause. It gives me some pause. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:50:09]: Does AI fill you with more hope or dread when it comes to journalism? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:50:13]: Dread. Deep dread. Bad dread. All dread. And I've been told not to feel this way. They keep telling me I shouldn't feel this way. But I am an avid reader of Afrofuturism and black sci fi. And so, as an Octavia Butler fan, deep pause. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:50:32]: But I'm told I shouldn't feel that way. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:50:34]: By the way, I read Parable of the Sower after 2016, and it was shocking how prescient that was. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:50:46]: I mean, if I don't but I do not believe in time travel, but Octavia Butler might be a time traveler. But also as she and many other sci fi writers have said, it only feels like the future because in the present, you don't pay enough attention to how bad things actually are. Right? So they're actually often, like, what's the thing about, 1984? That it was really about 1948. But if he would have said that, folks would have freaked out. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:51:16]: Messy desk or clean desk? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:51:18]: Oh, very messy. Wildly, in fact. But as – that's not true. Cluttered. Because I actually don't believe in mess. It's a very clean environment. I'm always Lysol in it down. But it's a little, it's a little—I keep every notebook. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:51:32]: If I have a job, for the time that I have that job, every notebook I have written in while I had that job I own until I leave that job. Keep your notes, people. Keep your notes. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:51:43]: Best piece of advice you've been given. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:51:46]: When I first got this job, I was going to quit it because I didn't know what I was doing, and I was in my head failing. And this is, like, three months here, by the way. So I was – I told someone this, and I really wish I could remember who said this to me. But I remember the advice, not the person. And I said I'm failing. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna fail Sarah and Outlier and blah blah blah. And they said, well, have you ever been a startup nonprofit newsroom leader? And I said, no. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:52:14]: They said, well, then why would you know how to do it? Your job is to learn how to do your job right now. And if you can't figure out how to do the job, then call me back later. Your job sometimes is to learn how to do the job. You do not have to be an expert the day you walk in the room, but what you do have to be always is curious and committed to getting the work done. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:52:36]: Is there a piece of common advice or conventional wisdom that you, that drives you crazy and it's oversimplification or just wrongness? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:52:44]: Sustainability is the future because often people are talking about money, and nothing is sustainable because of money. Money is a tool. Right? It is not the thing. It is but a tool. We've used many things in exchange for money throughout history, and they have worked just fine until they didn't. And I think that right now, the over dependence on capitalism and overdependence on consumption because of capitalism is failing us, and somehow we are still believing that that is the thing that will save us and particularly save delicate information systems. Capitalism doesn't wouldn't even want to save something like an information system. It would be anti its very purpose. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:53:32]: You're about to go to the home of fail fast, where failures valorize, but we don't talk about it enough, I think, in journalism, because sometimes failure puts you in a much better place or teaches you a lesson you needed to learn. Do you have a favorite failure? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:53:48]: My god. All of them. I fail constantly. I mean, I fail so hard. But favorite is hard, but the one I learned the most from is when I first started WDT, I was tasked with putting together this event where we were gonna cover the Detroit bankruptcy four years later. And it was a big event that was gonna, where we invited the mayor, the judge that oversaw the bankruptcy, the governor, and, like, all of these newsrooms to come together for this live event at Wayne State University. And this is a big thing and we got it done. They all agreed to appear. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:54:24]: It was gonna be live to tape for our PBS station. Big deal. And we knew there would be protests. Right? Because if you can remember, there are pensioners that gave up their pensions for the bankruptcy. And so I was pretty new to not media, but journalism. And so I was listening to the folks who were journalists and building this and not to my innate ability to build community and to understand community needs. And the protesters kept saying something about Flint. And I was mad because they were interrupting my event, my big fancy event. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:55:09]: Had I listened to those protesters, had I talked to those protesters, I would have heard a story about an emerging crisis happening in a city about an hour away from Detroit. And instead, I cared about protecting the governor and the mayor and the judge and the journalist and the production and not the people we were there to serve. I was fortunate that a group of those protesters, through a friend of mine, invited a few of us to a church basement to have a conversation about what had happened at that event and the inappropriateness of the event. And I will not tell you that I left that church basement completely changed, but that conversation set in my spirit over time, and I am now I would never do an event like that. That just would never occur to me to have a moment like that now. And I am grateful that there were people in this community willing to pull, as they say, pull your slip, willing to pull my slip and say, hey, little girl, sit down. Because you don't actually know everything that you think you know. And just because the fancy folks have endorsed you, it does not mean that you're doing the right thing. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:56:24]: What's one thing you do to restore yourself and maintain your sanity? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:56:29]: I am, I spend as much time as I can with one of my dear surrogate mothers who decided to actually, make money by working in a for profit. And she winters on an island and allows me to stay with her as much as I want to. And so I tried to get to her as much as I can. Not just because it's a beautiful island with gorgeous beaches, but because she is one of the smartest, kindest human beings I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. And sitting under her tutelage is a gift that people would pay good money for, and I get to do it for free. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:57:09]: Do you have a favorite time saving hack? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:57:12]: Trust the people on your team to do their job. Often, I find that leaders are over committed because they're still doing jobs that they actually hire people to do. Stop micromanaging your team. 

Media and local recommendations 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:57:26]: So we talked a little bit about Detroit. We've talked a good bit about Detroit. What are three to  five places or activities that you would recommend to someone visiting Detroit? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:57:36]: You have to walk the Riverwalk. It has been voted the greatest Riverwalk in the country. I don't care about the votes. It's true. It's beautiful. And you'll have a gorgeous view of Windsor, Ontario because we sit on the border of Canada. It is incredible. It's a beautiful walk, and I do it almost every day. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:57:54]: Go to Source Booksellers. Source Booksellers is owned by an incredible woman named Miss Janet. It has been here for many, many, many moons. Miss Janet is the person, and that bookstore is the place I go to when the world gets really stupid, and I can't understand it. I walk in there, and she fixes my brain every time with the simplest possible words because she's the most well read human being I know. And she can take all of that knowledge and, like, dives it down to one sentence. So Source Booksellers is absolutely at the top of that list of places people should be going. The other place is to go see a concert at the Aretha Franklin Amphitheatre. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:58:37]: It was named after, used to be called Shane Park. It sits right on the water. It is maybe one of the greatest concert views, maybe outside of Red Rocks in Colorado. It gives you that feeling like, you're like, this is an experience. This is beautiful. You'll also be looking out at Canada. Once again, we got a lot—you know, we got a whole thing with Canada. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:58:54]: And then I would say, finally, is to go—oh, it's a tie. Oh, no. Okay. If you're here on a Saturday, go down to Eastern Market, which is one of the oldest continuously running farmers markets in the country. It's a great vibe. If you wanna see Detroit, be in Detroit, Eastern Market. You'll hear folks singing the blues over in this quarter and somebody playing a banjo in this corner. And if that's not Detroit, I don't know what it is. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:59:19]: And then I think, finally, go spend some time at Motor City Wine on a Friday night listening to some of the greatest musicians in the country who sometimes jam there for free. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:59:28]: I have to ask, Is there a hole in the wall restaurant you'd recommend? 

CANDICE FORTMAN [00:59:32]: How many? Yeah. So you're gonna go into Eastern Markets and you go to Eastern Market, you gotta go to Cutter’s. Cutter’s Bar and Grill. It's been but you know what? They did a – they remodeled recently or, like, with the last couple of years, and I was like, this is not the Cutter’s I grew up with. These kids don't know. The carpet – they used to have carpet in a bar in GRIO, and that carpet had been there for decades. And it was filthy, and the food was delicious. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [00:59:59]: Alright. And then final questions, three to five pieces of media you would recommend to the audience. And these can be entertainment, nonfiction, podcasts, TV shows, news media, whatever. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:00:12]: If anyone is trying to understand a part of what it was like to grow up in Detroit in the eighties nineties, I could not encourage them to listen more to Tanya Mosley's podcast, She Has A Name. It is I think maybe the last episode is coming up soon, so you'll be able to catch the whole thing. It chronicles the story of her sister, who—and I won't say more than that. It's an incredible journey that I think the audience should take. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [01:00:41]: Also a JSK alum. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:00:43]: Also a JSK alum. I have no bias towards JSK alum. I need to talk about it like a Nieman alum. Shout out to Wendi Thomas at MLK 50. Actually, you know what? Wendi Thomas's investigation into the hospital in Memphis, I think, is necessary reading for anyone who wants to understand how you return material goods back to a community through reporting. It should be taught. It should be a j-school course. Wendi's ability to, I mean, Wendi is one of the greatest investigative reporters in the country. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:01:20]: It is rooted in her understanding of Memphis. Very few people would have been able to get that story done the way Wendy got it done and create the impact that Wendy was able to create. So if you wanna understand that part of the world, that's a great piece of media to take in. Okay. Okay. Oh, should I go here? Yeah. I'm gonna go here. Beyoncé's Renaissance album. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:01:41]: And I wanna pick, I'll—I'm a music lover. I'm an amateur DJ. So that was a really hard choice for me to make because I really wanna say Aretha Franklin's Amazing Grace album, but we talk so much about Detroit. I think Beyoncé's Renaissance album is incredible because as a woman who is the same age as Beyoncé, I am just now getting into a place where I feel like I can be all of myself. And that album, the moment I put it on, I was like, oh, this is a woman who is becoming herself. Not who people told her she should be, not what management said she should be, not what her husband thinks she should be, not just someone's mother, not just someone's daughter, but the woman herself. And, a lot of my therapy work has been about figuring out how to be the fullness of my womanhood. Both a leader in an industry, but also Candace who has dreams and visions that are far outside the production that I do every day in order to make money. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:02:37]: And so finally I mean, we already said it, Parable of the Sower. If you've not read Parable to Sower, you should if you can handle it. Octavia Butler is one of the greatest gifts this country has ever received, and that piece of work and you should also do the full series. But the Parable of the Sower is, I think, foundational for people to understand what a future might look like if we don't get in front of it. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [01:03:03]: Well, Candice, thank you very much. This has been a treat. 

CANDICE FORTMAN [01:03:07]: It was a pleasure. Thank you, Tim. 

TIM REGAN-PORTER [01:03:11]: Thank you for listening to the Local News Matters podcast. Never miss an episode by subscribing in your favorite podcast player and sign up for our newsletter at lnmpod.com. 

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Past guests on the Local News Matters podcast include: Jean Friedman-Rudovsky (Resolve Philly), Jay Rosen (NYU), Sue Cross (Exit interview, INN), Mary Margaret White (Mississippi Today), Amy Kovac-Ashley (Tiny News Collective), Michael Shaprio (TAPinto), Kenny Katzgrau (redbankgreen and Broadstreet), John Garrett (Community Impact), Shannon Kinney (Dream Local Digital), Larry Ryckman (The Colorado Sun),  Frank Mungeam (Local Media Association), Kelly Ann Scott (Alabama Media Group), Sara Lomax and S. Mitra Kalita (URL Media), Elizabeth Hansen Shapiro (National Trust for Local News), Mike Rispoli and Richard Young (via When the People Decide), Sarabeth Berman (American Journalism Project), Rabbi Hillel Goldberg and Shana Goldberg (Intermountain Jewish News),  Lyndsay C. Green (via The Journalism Salute), Rashad Mahmood and Mark Glaser (New Mexico Local News Fund), Christian Vanek and Barbara Hardt (The Mountain-Ear), Dan Grech (BizHack), Zack Richner (Easy Tax Credits), Tracie Powell (Pivot Fund), Dan Oshinsky (Inbox Collective), Linda Shapley (via What Works), Yehong Zhu and Jake Seaton (Zette, Column), Charity Huff (January Spring), Joaquin Alvarado and Dave Perry (Aurora Sentinel), Steve Waldman (Rebuild Local News), Maritza Félix (Conecta Arizona), Michael Bolden (American Press Institute), Jeff Roberts and Corey Hutchins (CFOIC, Colorado College), Eve Pearlman and Erica Anderson (Spaceship Media), Jennifer Brandel (Hearken, Democracy SOS), Corey Hutchins with Bay Edwards, Todd Chamberlain and Raleigh Burleigh (Sopris Sun).